We Shall All Be Changed

The Indignation is Coming

Continuing with Mr Thiessen's arguments.

Mr Thiessen quotes from Isaiah 26.  Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment until the indignation is past.  Mr Thiessen suggests that the indignation speaks of the great tribulation and that hiding indoors, represents the church already in heaven. 

Did Mr Thiessen not notice the words, for a little moment?  The effects of the rapture are not just for a little moment, they are eternal.  If he wants to take portions of Scripture out of context, and apply them where they do not belong, he should at least follow through with that method and try to make it all fit, not just the words that suit his ideas.  

When a Bible teacher tries to prove ideas that the Bible does not endorse, that teacher must “grasp at straws” or else he ends up with nothing in his hands.

Mr Thiessen then grabs at some more straws and turns his attention to the twenty-four elders around the throne of God in The Revelation.  One argument that he uses that these represent the redeemed is that twenty-four priests served in the temple in Jerusalem at one time.  He says they are representatives of all the saints of Old and New Testament times up to the rapture.  What, in this wide world, does that have to do with the Church or with the time of Christ’s return?

The Seventh Trumpet

In the Revelation, there are seven trumpets that sound.  Each one signals the start of a new period or a new style of tribulation.  The seventh one is recorded in 11:15.  When the seventh trumpet sounds six facets of the great tribulation period are already past.  

In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 Paul mentions only the seventh trumpet; that is the trumpet sound that signals the return of Christ.  He wrote For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the call of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, all the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with him forever.  

Since Christ is coming back at the sound of the seventh trumpet, the great tribulation, which is heralded by the first six trumpets, must already have taken place before the last trumpet sounds.  However, Paul wrote that Christ is coming back after the six trumpets have already sounded therefore Christians will still be dead or on earth at the sound of the seventh trumpet.

Paul Strandburg, a defender of the Pre-tribulation doctrine uses the following example to explain the disagreement concerning the seventh trumpet. If your friend John said he went to his favourite restaurant last night, and another friend Larry said he also went to his favourite restaurant last night, is it logical for you to assume they both went to the same restaurant? Obviously not, because even though John and Larry went to their favorite restaurants, they may have had two different eating establishments in mind. The same logic should apply with the word trumpet. 

His example might have some meaning except for the fact that in the Bible, the trumpets are specifically named.  In Strandburg’s example, this equates to John saying, the restaurant on the corner of 5th and James.  Larry, however, says, the restaurant on the corner of James and 5th.  

Even though the wording is different, the location is the same.  It is like that with the trumpets of the New Testament.  Paul spoke of the last trumpet blast; St. John, speaking of the last trumpet blast, called it the seventh trumpet blast.  Since there are only seven mentioned, they must be speaking of the same event.

We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound. 1 Cor. 15:51-52

To the Corinthian Christians, Paul wrote that at the last trumpet’s blast Christ would be returning, and we know that in The Revelation, there are seven trumpets, each one of which heralds a tribulation.  John tells us that the seventh trumpet heralds the return of Christ.  It is easy to correlate the two references to the last trumpet blast.   

It is a common error not to think of Christ’s return as being a tribulation.  It is the greatest of the tribulations because after that there is no more time for repentance and forgiveness for those who are not yet in the fold.  

How anyone cannot accept that the “last trumpet blast” of 1 Corinthians "1 Cor. 15:51-52" is the same as the “last trumpet blast” of The Revelation goes beyond belief. 

Brian Scheurtley writes: Although the pre-tribulation rapture theory is very popular today, given arguments that are offered in support of this doctrine we must declare Pre-tribulationalism to be contrary to the clear teachings of Scripture. Simply put, there is not one shred of evidence that can be found in the Bible to support the pre-tribulation rapture. The typical Pre-tribulational arguments offered reveal a pattern: of imposing one’s presuppositions onto a text without any exegetical justification whatsoever; of finding subtle meaning between words and/or phrases that were never intended by the author; of spiritualizing or ignoring passages that contradict the Pre-tribulational paradigm; and, of imposing Pre-tribulationalism upon passages that actually teach the unity of the eschatological complex (i.e., the rapture, second coming, general resurrection, and general judgment all occur on the same day—the day of the Lord). It is our hope and prayer that professing Christians would cast off this escapist fantasy and return to the task of personal sanctification and godly dominion. 

Pre-trib is ... quite a mess. It is a complicated colossus of disharmony and confusion.  Post-Trib, on the other hand, is simple, elegant, orderly and beautiful.

No Pre-trib Return of Christ

The Judgement Seat of Christ 

Christianity Oasis writes, The Judgment Seat of Christ for the believer is not to be confused with the Great White Throne Judgement for unbelievers. There will be an accounting at the Great White Throne Judgment for those who have refused Christ. Rev. 20:11,12,15.  

    Then, they quote, And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the Lake of Fire. Rev. 20:11,12,15

Christianity Oasis seems to have missed a few important statements made by John.  First, all the dead, small and great, were there.  The text does not say that only non-Christians were at the Great White Throne for judgment.  That is a point that is only assumed by those who believe that the rapture will take place before the tribulation.  

If this Great White Throne Judgement is not for Christians, what is the book of life doing there?  Surely, the Judge would know that all Christians were already past their day of judgment if the rapture happened before the tribulation.  Therefore, if Christians are not at the Great White Throne Judgement the Book of Life would be out of place there.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29 

It is clearly stated, by Christ, that the good and the bad will be resurrected at the same time.  Christ makes no allowance for the Christians to be resurrected before the tribulation, at Christ’s first-second coming, and a resurrection of the evil to a separate judgement called the Great White Throne judgement.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. 1 Thes. 4: 14-17.

One, Two, Three 

Some teachers falsely teach that Christ is coming back three times.  It seems that they need that doctrine to add weight to the theory that The Church will not pass through the great tribulation. 

They say that first Christ will come in the air for the Church, that is the rapture, then, after the seven-year great tribulation Christ is coming to set up the Millennial kingdom and when that is finished Christ will return to judge the non-Christians and those people who made themselves Christians without the holy spirit’s help; because the spirit of God ascended with the Church at the rapture one thousand and seven years earlier.

In spite of Christ’s and Paul’s words, the argument continues.  A few people believe that Christ is coming back halfway through the great tribulation.   There is almost no evidence that lends weight to that theory at all so it will be ignored here.  Many (Wikipedia says that about 95% of Evangelical Christians) believe that the return of Christ, in the air, will be before the great tribulation.  

Mr Thiessen is a proponent of this theory.  We will look at his arguments, from his book of theology, and using them, prove that his theory is hanging precariously, by slender threads.  Those threads are fastened on hooks called “if, we can surmise, and probably”.

To no avail, Mr Thiessen quotes Moffat, It is impossible from the grammer and difficult from the sense to decide (if the text) means successful endurance or absolute immunity.  Here, Mr Thiessen has gained no strength for his argument. Even the person he is quoting says the argument is not definitive or conclusive.

Mr Thiessen uses Noah as an example of one who was taken out of “the great tribulation”, in the ark.  Actually, this is a story from history, and it has nothing to do with the Church.  

However, if for the sake of argument, we agree that Noah symbolizes the Church, it must be pointed out that Noah is a picture of a person who was “safe in Christ”, not a person who went to heaven.  

After all, Noah had to come back to earth after the ordeal of the flood, but the Church will not come back to earth after the rapture.  Noah is a very poor example, with no argumentative value, to show that the rapture will happen before the great tribulation.

Lot’s deliverance from Sodom, also used by Mr Thiessen as an example of a pre-tribulation rapture, is also a historical event and has absolutely nothing to do with the Church or with the great tribulation and so that case cannot be used as an example.

Mr Thiessen and many other Bible teachers, attempt to make a case for a pre-tribulation rapture from the 69-70 weeks of Daniel chapter nine.  However, after having made his closing argument, he says if that week is still future.  What if it is not, then he has made no valid argument at all.  

This is a good example of how weak the whole line of reasoning for a pre-tribulation rapture really is.

The next post will continue this theme.

The Pre-Tribulation Return of Christ

No Pre - Just Pro

 Anyone who accepts the pre-tribulation return of Christ should think again about this subject.

Those who believe that the Bible must be accepted literally, whenever possible, are, of course, constrained to believe that Jesus will be coming back for The Church.  The question here is not, will He be coming back, but when will He be coming back. 

First, it needs to be stated that, according to Christ, no one, not even the angels in heaven, know the time of Christ’s return.  Setting dates for His return or even for the end of this era is at best funny and at its worst, it is stating that we do not believe that Christ knew what He was talking about! 

By asking the question, when, in this case, is meant, according to the Bible will He be coming before or after the great tribulation.

Dr Findley writes, When we begin to investigate the matter, we soon come to realise that the theologians who crafted the Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine have done some rather wild and woolly things with the Holy Scriptures. 

The fact is there is not one single passage of scripture that gives sound and convincing proof of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.  Not one!  The doctrine sounds nice and it goes down well with the middle of the road Christian crowds.  And it sells well in the religious marketplaces.  Indeed the Pre-Tribulation doctrine has become entertainment for the masses.  It is a huge multi-billion dollar a year religi-business.

But here is the question. Can the idea of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture stand up to faithful (Bible) scrutiny? Or is the doctrine emotionally driven by wishful thinking? Quite obviously it is a soothing melodramatic eschatology. Has it been crafted by men to keep the masses amused, - and "quiet"? 

The pre-tribulation rapture theory 

• is not plainly taught or directly stated in any place in Scripture, 
• cannot be deduced from biblical teaching, 
• contradicts the general teaching of the Bible regarding Christ’s second coming and 
• was never taught in any branch of the church prior to 1830.

John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), who was the leader of the Brethren movement and the “father of modern Dispensationalism,” took Margaret Macdonald’s new teaching on the rapture, made some changes … and incorporated it into his Dispensational understanding of Scripture and prophecy. 

To continue the theme Mr Thiessen writes, Jewish teachers held that the period would come between the present age and the age to come … they were commonly agreed what the passage from the one age to the other would be through a period of intense sorrow and anguish. … We have shown…that this period of sorrow and anguish will end with the coming of Christ to the earth.  

   He is trying to establish the idea that Christ will be coming back before the period of sorrow and anguish by using a quotation, which states the exact opposite.

Mr Thiessen also quotes from The Shepherd of Hermas which is a fairy tale, complete with talking animals, dating from the second century AD.  Rightly, the church usually ignores this writing, but on the chance that it might add weight to one's conviction, it is used as evidence. 

In the story, after Hermas relates his experience, of meeting a horrible beast, to a lady, she replies, this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming.  If you turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it.  Mr Thiessen continues, This surely shows that there was teaching to the effect that the church would escape the great tribulation.  

To claim Hermas as an authority, on anything spiritual, is highly questionable.  Hermas also believed that “the Son of God was distinguished from Jesus” and he calls The Holy Spirit “God’s Primary Son” so that God ends up with two sons. 

   Bible teachers would do well not to use Hermas as a witness, but when they cannot find the evidence they need, in the Bible, for their theories they grasp for anything that they hope will lend some support.

Let's look at what the Bible says about this subject.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days… the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven…and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mat. 24:29-31.

It seems strange that the “pre-trib” and the “post-trib” issue has even become a serious question because Christ plainly said, Immediately after the tribulation … they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, and … gather together His elect. 

Does Christ need to hit us on the head with a two by four before we will listen to what He is saying?

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. And before him shall be gathered all nations. Mat. 25:31-32.

A Throne in Jerusalem

About this verse, David Stewart writes, Carefully notice that Jesus is going to sit upon His throne in Jerusalem when He returns.  He then goes on to say that this is an impossible situation unless the rapture happens before the great tribulation.

What makes him think this would be an impossible situation?  Why could Christ not come back after the tribulation and still sit on the throne in Jerusalem?  This verse adds no credence to the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture.

Matthew Henry writes, the Lord Jesus will come down from heaven in all the pomp and power of the upper world … he will come again, and appear in his glory. He will descend from heaven into this our air. The appearance will be with pomp and power, with a shout—the shout of a king, and the power and authority of a mighty king and conqueror. Christ will be sitting on a throne allright, but not an earthly throne.  

When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world....’ Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels....’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Matthew 25:31-46. 

Christ, in this speech, made it very clear that the sheep and the goats would both be at the judgement seat at the same time.  The sheep, the Christians, will be on the right side of the judge and the goats, the non-Christians, will be on the left side.  The Bible does not teach two separate judgment sessions; one for Christians and another for non-Christians.   

Where did our religious teachers ever get the idea that we would spend some time in heaven before we stand before The Judge?  What if, at the judgement seat, the verdict declares a person not to be valid for heaven?  That person will have shared the glories he did not have coming.

The next post will continue this theme.